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Tim: Welcome to the control your cash podcast. I’m Tim Yurek 

Olivia: and I’m Olivia Kirk. Today we welcome Harlon Pickett of Eagle Care Health Solutions. Harlon, thank you so much for joining us on this episode today. 

Harlon: Absolutely. Olivia, Tim, it is a pleasure and my honor to be here. 

Olivia: Yes. And Harlon, you’re calling in from San Antonio, Texas, but we understand you work with all 50 states and I know that we have a great episode in store for our listeners today, um, with some unique solutions to health type insurance and health care for small businesses as well as individuals.

So I’m excited to get into that. 

Harlon: Yeah, absolutely. Whenever I had an opportunity to talk to Tim previously, I think It fits right in with the model that you guys use in control your cash. The thought process around health insurance, what we call the big lie, is that you cannot control your health care cost.

And business owners in particular have been fed this line. I’ll just stop right there for years and years that they had no control over it. It’s just a you know what? Next year the rates gonna go up and the next year the rates gonna go up and there’s nothing you can do about that. And as I said, it is the big lie.

There are ways that you can actually take control of your health care costs, therefore controlling your cash. 

Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. So Harlon and I had the chance to speak a little bit before, before the recording and, you know, he was talking as you were, as you were talking, Harlon, there were so many parallels, you know, between what Tim and I do and in our work is with financial planning, um, that were direct parallels with what you do and how you help people break the chains to what is normal and what is the conventional wisdom and what is presented to us that so often.

could take advantage of the business owner as well as the individual. So, um, you’re doing great work over there. So tell us a little bit about how you got started in this space. 

Harlon: Yeah, the story is, you know, the same old for many people. And that is I’ve been in this industry for almost 20 years. I was brought up to believe that insurance was awesome.

It was necessary for everybody. You know, the definition of insurance, if you’re out there and you have no idea what insurance actually really means, it isn’t someone just to pay your bills. It is the sharing of risk. The actual definition of insurance is the sharing of risk. Now, what happens whenever there is no sharing of risk anymore is you’re going to see, uh, rates really climb the way we have seen since.

The ACA, Affordable Care Act, Obamacare, has been put into place. When there’s no underwriting to be done and everyone must be considered as the same, then in essence everyone must be considered sick. So everyone has to be considered, at basically the worst case scenario, because even though it’s still called insurance, it really isn’t by definition anymore.

Because once you have, uh, now really what you’re doing is you’re paying somebody else to pay your bill. Uh, that is not a sharing of risk anymore. The insurance company takes on the full blunt of that because they have no choice but to accept you, no matter what your conditions are. Of course, this is also the reason why people have to pay the same thing, whatever your age is, whatever your zip code is.

You’re paying the same thing as everyone else is in that age group and in that zip code. The, the reason for that is, is because once again, everyone must be considered the same. So even if you are 32 years old and perfectly healthy, never been sick in years and years, and you go and you have your annual physicals done and everything is wonderful, Or you’re 32 years old, and you’ve got autoimmune diseases, and you have thyroid problems, and you are a cancer survivor, or in cancer treatment.

All of those prices are exactly the same for each of those two people. Uh, therefore, everyone is sick. It doesn’t matter if you’re the well person or the sick person. Everyone is taught, everyone is looked at exactly the same. I didn’t understand this, as many of us didn’t, whenever this change happened. So, we watch these prices increase, and then we watch the insurance companies start taking dramatic action and denial of services and deciding when people really should have something or not.

There’s a difference between pre authorization and just denying service. Pre authorization is actually necessary in many cases to make sure you’re not getting something done that can hurt you or harm you. Uh, that’s also called medical utilization management. But what we’ve really run into now is so much that is just automatically denied.

You know, there’s that old joke out there that there’s the person that their only job is to rubber stamp deny it on everything that comes across their table without them even looking at it, right? Just, they just, it just comes through there and they just hit the red thing on it and then we’ll see who appeals and then we’ll think about whether we’re going to pay anything.

And it feels that way sometimes to folks because they don’t understand. Why I just got an x ray denied when clearly I have something wrong. Why would you say I can’t have an x ray to figure out what it is? So all of these things kind of bundled together, Olivia, as I was going through my career and I realized I’m not helping the people that I thought I was helping.

People are getting denied life changing services. And people are not able to afford their insurance anymore. They’re, they’re really just putting it away. And if they do have insurance, they’re deductible so high now that they can’t afford to get their health care anymore. And I used to believe, like many people do, that health insurance and health care were the same thing.

But they are not. They are two very different things. And you do not have to have health insurance to get health care. I had to learn that lesson. And once I did, then I realized there had to be a better way. And so that’s what sent us down this pathway of what we call alternative funded health solutions that in some cases use insurance and in some cases do not, but in every case provide access to high quality health care.

Olivia: Is that the real insurance, Harlon? The sharing of risk or the fake insurance?

Harlon: You know, it’s interesting because when we go through with one of these plans, typically your group is going to be underwritten as your group, not what everyone else is in your area. And so that then is actual insurance. It is based on the health of your population, your employees. That means that, hey, a younger, healthier group is going to get better rates than that middle or older group that may have some health issues.

Is it fair? Well, absolutely, it’s fair. One provides a lesser risk than the other. That’s the way, in my opinion, it should be because now we’re using insurance again. Do you want the lower rates? Well, let me tell you, this is something very interesting. There are a number of things that we can institute into a health plan to help your group get healthier.

We can’t get them any younger. We haven’t figured that one out yet, Lydia. We haven’t figured that one out yet, Tim. We can’t get them any younger. 

Olivia: You had my attention for a second, Harlon. 

Tim: Well, Harlon, I just want to hold that thought because I got the solution for getting younger because a few weeks ago, I was up in St.

Augustine, Florida, and they have the Fountain of Youth. So, you know, we haven’t given up on that, so just keep that in mind. Mastermind 

Olivia: Sessions, St. Augustine, Florida, the Fountain of Youth.

Harlon: When you said St. Augustine, I knew where you were going there, Tim. That’s uh, that’s clearly their claim to fame there. I, I don’t know. Maybe that’s why so many people retire to Florida is everyone’s actually trying to matriculate that way down towards St. Augustine so they can get them a little drink and see what happens, right?

Tim: That’s right. Well, you know, a couple other things that you had alluded to earlier on in this conversation is that, What passes for health insurance today is really not insurance. It’s really just basically you’re hiring somebody to pay your bills and, and they’re not doing a good job at that anyhow. And you know, the other thing, you know, you had mentioned the affordable care act, which every government program that comes out with a name sounds like this great thing for the consumer or for the Average person, right?

The Affordable Care Act. It’s neither affordable and they don’t care. They don’t give a crap, you know? And it’s funny. And you talk about the lies, right? So I’ll, I’ll just, I’ll take over here. I’ll carry the ball for you here, Harlon. If you like your doctor, you could keep them. Obama. That was it. That was the truth.

Or how about. If you like your health plan, you could keep it. Well, none of that turned out to be true, but I guess we have to also accept that 81 million people voted for a guy who stayed in his basement.

Harlon: Well, I’m not going down that pathway with you, Tim, but I hear what you’re saying, you know, the thing about that act and you missed one key part of that whole thing. We can’t read it until we pass it. Then we’ll take a look and see actually what’s inside of it. That was just one of the most famous things ever to me.

It’s so, first of all, you’re just too dumb to understand it, people. You don’t realize how much we’re helping you. Y’all read it later. It’s like, really? What could go wrong? It’s the old saying, right? I’m from the government and I’m here to help. Run for the damn hills when you hear that, folks. Run for the damn hills.

Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. So, Harlon, let’s pivot back. Tell me, how, so, as far as, from an employer’s perspective, let’s say someone has a small business and they have normal health health insurance from, you know, wherever they get it. Um, how could your solutions help them to, you know, get their people better care, healthier and lower the cost as well?

Because that’s a huge burden. I know it’s a huge burden on the on the business owners to the point where some business owners aren’t offering Uh, insurance to their employees. Even 

Harlon: Yeah, that’s something that we ran into a number of times. And once again, it’s one of the things that opened my eyes as well.

So some of the clients that I had some of the small group clients that I had within two or three years of the passage of Obamacare, they were out of that business, right? They were out of that. I’m giving I’m providing health insurance to my employees business, not out of business, out of business, but out of that particular business.

Because Transcribed If you have less than 50 employees, you are not required to provide health insurance. And that number, that less than 50, that makes them about 90 percent of the businesses in the United States. So that means that the majority of businesses are not required to provide insurance. They do it because they want their folks to have, you know, access to health care.

They care about their people. And the unfortunate part is when they do offer it, it eventually becomes such a burden or becomes, uh, the plans change to where there’s very high deductibles, very low usage, and it ends up becoming a burden to the employer and the employee at the end of the day. So now the employee is wishing they didn’t have anything offered because they may actually qualify for a nice tax credit and be able to get that.

Another crappy plan, a different crappy plan, we get a crappy plan on the marketplace instead of a crappy plan from work. And, so, that just, it changes the dynamic of it. So, the answer, of course, is to look at what is going on with that company and asking them a very interesting question. I’m sure y’all never ask your clients this, because it doesn’t appear anyone in health insurance does anyway.

Well, what do you want? What do you want your health plan to do? What do you want it to look like? What are the benefits that you believe your employees would like to have? Would you like us to talk to them and find out what’s important to them? What’s their overall health? What type of care do they need?

When you ask those questions and then the employer realizes that they can actually have input on what their plan looks like and the benefits that are built into it, it changes the game dramatically. And here’s the other part. Most health plans, and I talked to you a little bit about this before we started.

Health insurance and health care are two different things, but we’ve been brainwashed in this country to believe that health insurance equals health care, and especially for small employers. But what is not built into any of your traditional health insurance plans is health care. Now think about that for a minute.

There’s nothing in there. that there is actual access to health care built in. Even if there’s a copay, you’re like, oh no, no, but there is. See, I have this copay where I get to go see a doctor. Okay, how’s that working out for you? When you finally get to see that doctor, how long do you spend in the waiting room?

When you finally get out of the waiting room and into the room, how long do you wait before the doctor shows up? When the doctor finally shows up, how much time do you actually have with that doctor? When that consultation of five to seven minutes is done, what are the next steps? Well, I can promise you it’s typically going to be one of two things.

Hey, it’s time for a new medication, or I’m going to refer you to a specialist for that. Even if it’s within the scope of what that practitioner can do, they typically don’t have the time to treat you and the inclination, because They know that they’re going to actually receive bonuses by pushing you up that chain.

The more they push you, it’s not about writing medication scripts anymore that give them bonuses. It’s about feeding up that chain. healthcare system change. They need you to see a specialist, and then another specialist, and you know what the best possible outcome could be? Surgery. Oh my god, I wouldn’t believe how much money they’re going to pour down on me if I can get someone to have some surgery.

That’s a beautiful thing right there. It is. Talk about a conflict of interest. Well, of course it is, but imagine that every single year you could guarantee one thing, and that is the compensation you received was going down. Would you like that? Olivia, would you be happy if every year you knew the one thing that you could guarantee is that your, your job was going to guarantee you a lesser income?

Well, that is primary care in our country. Primary care every year gets anywhere from a three to five percent decrease in how much they’re getting paid by Medicaid, Medicare, and in many case health plans. However, their expenses go up every single year. So, they’re being treated, as the old saying would go, as a red headed stepchild, when they are actually the primary person, primary care, primary person, that determines what your health is going to look like.

What is your journey going to look like? Well, let’s take that health system out. How do we switch things up, right? How do we make it better? Let’s take that health system out there. Let’s get back to that patient doctor relationship. where we have what’s called direct primary care or advanced primary care or even direct specialty care where you have, in essence, your own corporate doctor, your own company doctor for your employees, where they can even text with a doctor 24 7, where they can, they can know they can be, I mean, when’s the last time you were able to text to your doctor and actually get a response?

Right? I mean, you can’t even talk to him. You call the office and you’ll never get a call back from the doctor. I’m lucky I could get to the nurse. Maybe, you might eventually get to the nurse, right? 

Tim: Maybe, maybe. 

Harlon: Maybe, right? This is, when we get these relationships in there, when we bring back that doctor patient relationship, now we’ve actually put health care back in the health plan.

But notice what I didn’t say there, health insurance. I We’re building a health plan that actually is what’s called the health care supply chain. So we bring in all the different parts of what a health plan or a health insurance plan would look like, but we build it in a very, very unique way so that it benefits the employee and the employer, not an insurance company.

Tim: Well, Harlon, it also, it appears to me that it also benefits the physician. 

Harlon: Absolutely. 

Tim: Right. So, I mean, there’s three stakeholders in this deal and they’re certainly the patient or the employee. There’s certainly the employer who’s paying the lion’s share, if not all of the cost. Right. And then there’s the physician.

And so the physician is paying is is getting paid. To do what he loves to do the reason why he went to medical school or she I’m sorry right because they want to take care of patients and that’s one of the things that I’ve seen in this corporate world of what is now and I hate to use the term health care because it’s really not health care but in this you know big corporate health care conglomerates that have taken over what you’re seeing is the care is just not there because, you know, doctors don’t have the time and they’re really not compensated to do what their patients expect them to do, which is to care for them, right?

Harlon: That’s exactly right. And it’s interesting. We talk about it, you know, still the number one, I’m sure you guys know this very, very well with the business you’re in. The number one reason people file bankruptcy in this country still to this day is medical debt. And for the first time ever, the numbers prove out that more people that have medical debt also have health insurance than those that don’t.

So we’ve seen that this thing is, it’s not, it’s not about not having insurance. In other words, the people who have health insurance, more of them now, there’s more of them that are having bankruptcy due to medical debt than those that don’t have it. So it’s, it’s not about insurance. It’s about access to health care.

And it’s about how you get that access. And just knowledge. And that’s the problem is the other part of it. People simply don’t know. And, and that’s the, that’s the difficult part. But the other side of that is what you just talked about with doctors. And that is the moral bankruptcy that happens to physicians when they’re not allowed to practice medicine.

And the way that they truly want to. They truly have a desire to do what’s in the best interest. But they simply. are not allowed to because of the machine that they have found theirself in. Um, we see record numbers stepping away, retiring earlier, completely getting out of medicine in a time when we can.

We cannot afford to lose any more primary care physicians. They’re just leaving in droves. and the folks coming out. Remember what I talked about. Hey, here it is. You’re going to be the lowest paid coming out and every year your pay is going to go down. And by the way, Mr. Med School student, can we get you to be a primary care doctor?

Yeah, good luck with that. I think I’ll be a podiatrist. Or whatever, right? I certainly don’t want to be one of those guys who has a high workload and a low pay. But this is the beauty of what has happened. There’s always the balances, right? The beauty of what has happened is it has caused a remarkable number to step away and say direct primary care is the answer.

This, this base where I’m not, I don’t accept insurance, I don’t accept Medicaid, I don’t accept Medicare. It is simply a relationship between me and my clients. And I’ll only take so many because you’re going to be guaranteed same day or next day appointments. and you’re going to be guaranteed the care that you truly deserve.

And the, the primary care physicians we see that are using this direct primary care model, they’re taking care of anywhere from 85 to 90 percent of all of your health care needs. A primary care doctor can take care of so many more things than what you believe they can, Before they ever have to send you to a specialist.

Whenever they have time to treat you. So in direct primary care, you’re getting 30, 45, even an hour to spend with your physician. Not in the waiting room, but with your physician. They don’t stop you and they say, Well, you know, uh, Olivia, I see you came in for four things today. But you know, we have a limit of three.

So, we’re going to talk about which ones are the most important to you. And then you can set another appointment for four months now to talk about that fourth one. I’m not allowed to really talk about four things. I don’t, I can’t put that in my code thing. If we did that, I wouldn’t get paid. And I can’t afford to not get paid.

You don’t want the, you don’t want the office to close, do you? Come on, help me out. And that’s real case stuff. That’s ridiculous it should be that way. But it’s not that way. Whenever you have that relationship with a primary care doctor in the direct primary care or advanced primary care setting. in a membership base where we’re taking care of your employees and we’re taking care of your business and we’re making sure they get healthier, not sicker, and we’re making sure they can afford care and there’s not any barriers to care.

It changes things dramatically. 

Tim: So Harlon, that that is so such a such great, uh, insight on, you know, the problem that is faced by the employer, the physician. And the employee. So how did you see, or how did you have the foresight to see the solution? And what have you seen as the result of implementing this plan?

Harlon: Yeah. So I would love to take credit for all of this and it was all my idea. And, but it’s simply, it’s not the case. I did something kind of crazy. I went to places and I listened. I listened to others that had these great ideas. I listened to others that were fighting the good fight. Other rebels, as we like to say.

Other disruptors. Other folks that were seeing the problem and looking for solutions. I listened, and some of it I agreed with, some of it I didn’t. Some of it was just even too crazy for me. And I know that’s nuts, right? I mean, because I do some crazy stuff. But some of it also I didn’t feel like went far enough.

So what you get with eagle care is you kind of get what I believe is a bit of a balance, a balance between, you know, the old ways and some of the new ways. While I am not a huge fan of traditional insurance models now, I still believe they have a very, very important place. There are times there are groups that simply because of health issues are ongoing health use.

In particular, they have to stay with a fully insured health plan. Or we have to do some type of hybrid where some of the people are on a fully insured health plan and some people are not. It’s all about the group themselves and building something that’s custom for them. If you don’t ask the right questions, there’s no way you’ll get the answers that help you determine that.

But this journey has, is not easy. It’s still, it’s still not easy, Tim. Still not easy, Olivia, because Employers have been told this big lie that I talked about earlier. It’s been, it’s been talked about for so long. They just don’t want to hear there’s something different. They just don’t believe that there’s a chance that they could control their health care cost.

And when you start talking about something that’s not one of the big ones, if it’s not a blue, if it’s not a United Healthcare, if it’s not a Humana, if it’s not an Aetna, if it’s not one of those, then it just must not be any good. I mean, why would you even talk to me about something like that? That just doesn’t even, I mean, my employees have to have that blue cross blue shield on their card.

If they don’t have that on their card, they’re gonna, they’re gonna hang me, man. I can’t have that. Why? Why? Why is that? What about some education? What about we really asked him how well this plan is treating them and what is happening on this plan? I think you’ll be surprised. I think they’ll be surprised because even people who believe they have to have something like that once.

You really ask them the questions on how they’re being treated, and on what their experience has been, sometimes that film is lifted from their eyes, and they’re like, you know what? I’ve had all those things happen to me. Why do I need this card exactly? 

Tim: You know, Harlon, it’s, it’s not as much film lifted from their eyes, but the scales are lifted from their eyes.

Harlon: Yeah, no, I mean, you’re right. It’s, it really depends on how blinded they are. What’s, what’s interesting, it Is we have some that there is no conversation. They have had such bad experiences that it’s like, I don’t really care what you’re doing as long as it ain’t the same ol same ol right? All the, the only thing I don’t want is status quo.

You just tell me whatever we’re gonna do and I’m in. And then you’ve got the other ones that they’re just not ready. And that’s okay. It really is okay. We’re gonna show you the other way. We, maybe we just put small little steps in there. Maybe the first thing that we’re going to do is we’re going to address what you’re spending on your prescription drugs, because that’s one of the number one things that kills health plans is the high cost of prescription drugs.

Maybe we put something in there where now you’re going to start getting some of those overseas. Or now you’re going to start doing a little bit of different thing for specialty. Putting just a few little things in there can have the impact of saving tens of thousands of lives. Depending on the size of the group, hundreds of thousands or even millions of dollars from your health plan.

And once an employer gets a taste of that, Ooh baby, here we go. They’re ready. They’re ready for at least another step. Another step, another step, and Uh, you know, we’ve seen turnarounds as long as, you know, three years before groups were ready to really start making that dramatic change. You just work at whatever pace they’re going to because the number one thing that we’re looking to do is meet that group where they are.

And help them negotiate this incredibly difficult system so they can do the best thing for their employees and for their company. 

Tim: So Harlon, your solution is not an all or nothing. So it seems, it appears to me, if I understood you correctly, it’s the kind of thing where you could sort of ease into this and transition away from the conventional wisdom traditional health care plan.

Harlon: Yeah, absolutely. And you can even have a traditional plan at the same time you’re doing this. You can have a traditional plan and once again, we can ease in, uh, different solutions, different point solutions, different ideas and concepts into it with your, even your traditional plan so that you can start getting a taste and a feel of what it looks like.

You know, one of the main things that we have a difficult time with when someone is fully insured is they have no claims data. The insurance company will not provide us anything to let us know what the overall health of that group is. So as we can start putting a few little things in there, even if we keep them with a major insurance company, but we move them to what we call self funded.

It’s not as scary as it sounds, but once we put that in there, it’s just a, just a way the thing’s funded, folks. It’s not really. You’re self funding already. Who’s paying the premiums, right? Whose money is it? It’s your money already. So, just because it says fully insured, it doesn’t make any difference whether it’s fully insured or self funded.

It’s still your money, okay? It’s just the way the buckets are set up. But even if we do that, that means that now that data is yours. You are allowed to look at that data, so we’re better able to make the adjustments where those adjustments need to be. When you’re fully insured, we have no idea where all your costs came from.

We have no idea if you really should have got that rate increase or not. There’s no data. The insurance company just tells us, Oh man, y’all had a really bad year. We’re going to have to kick up your rates. Based on what? Well, we can’t share that with you. That’s proprietary. What? I just spent my money and now you’re telling me you can’t tell me why you want more of my money.

Where else does anyone do that? Really guys? Think about that. Where else does anyone have that same thing happen to them except for in the crazy world of healthcare and health insurance? 

Tim: Yeah, that’s that’s a great point. And you know, Harlon, you made a good point earlier a few minutes ago about it’s your money because a lot of times the employee Because the employee may not be paying directly or paying the lion’s share of the cost, they think that, okay, my employer’s paying, paying this.

But what they fail to realize is in the absence of the healthcare, they would get a higher wage. And 

Harlon: it is, you know, so one of the number one things that people miss out on is realizing that these, the cost of healthcare. is keeping money out of their own pockets because whenever you a recent survey came out and the question was asked with the cost of health care continue to increase and even outpace and outpace inflation right now of 172 employers that were surveyed across groups of less than a thousand to over 5, 000 across every industry you could imagine.

91% said that in one way or another, we’re going to have to push those costs off onto the employee as they continue to go up 91%. Well, that can be done in various ways, right? It can be done by your premiums go up. It can be done by that three, five, 6 percent raise you were going to get. You don’t get it.

Okay. Believe me folks, that is pushing the cost onto you. Trust me. If you’re not getting a raise Blue Cross is Aetna is Okay? Your insurance broker is. Ask him. He’s a heavy guy, man. He plays, uh, he plays golf with the director of HR, uh, every couple of months. And, uh, he, he takes him out to dinner so he can stay on that health plan so he can enjoy your raises that you’re not getting.

Okay? That’s the reality of what’s happening out there right now. But that is, that’s directly, uh, to, to your point. It’s taking money out of employees pockets because of the increased cost of healthcare. 

Tim: Yeah, so thanks for making that clarification. So the other thing is, what are you seeing as far as, and I know you had alluded to it earlier about, you know, your physician under, under this plan, your, that your physician is now allowed to spend more time with you and actually maybe carve or craft a, uh, an actual health care plan for you to improve your health.

Get better, what have you. What other positives are you seeing or results are you seeing from this type of care? 

Harlon: So one of the big issues that we have in this country is, uh, about 61 percent of folks don’t go to the doctor unless they’re sick. So that means they’re not getting the preventative things done that they should be getting done.

And there is not a focus in United States on primary care like there is in most other first world countries as it were. For And because of that, we have seen chronic illnesses. I mean, look at what’s happened with diabetes and look at what is what happened with thyroid issues. I mean, they’re in chronic, terrible levels.

I mean, it’s epidemic like with what’s going on with some of these chronic diseases because they’re not being controlled properly. So we’re seeing a workforce that is not as healthy as it should be. But with these health plans It’s not just the access to the doctor, but it’s the it’s the removal of the barriers to get to see the doctors.

The removal of barriers to get to have access to a nutrition without having to spend a bunch of extra money because it’s included as part of your plan so that you can now get that taken care of. It’s I’m not having to deal with this chronic back pain anymore because now I have access, in many cases, to zero out of pocket to find out what’s going on with my back.

I can get my imaging for zero out of pocket. I can have that imaging looked at and read and diagnosed for zero out of pocket. And now if I need to have other things done, it’s going to be affordable or it’s going to in some cases, when we put plans together, zero out of pocket. all the way up through surgery if necessary.

Last thing we want to do, if we don’t have to, we don’t want you to go through surgery. But why are you dealing with this chronic pain in your back, in your knee, in your shoulder, and wherever? So it’s access. It’s true access and removal of barriers to health care, not just at the primary care level, but all the way up that chain of what of the different things you may really need.

And in a lot of plans that we’re doing now, too, people want to look at more holistic. They want some of these natural solutions. Maybe they want to look at chiropractic or even acupuncture or acupressure. Some of these other things. We can build that into a plan now. If that’s something that your group wants to have, we can do that.

There’s just so many things that are out there now that will help remove the barriers to access to health care. And that’s, that’s the big deal, Tim. To answer your question, that’s the big part. Remove whatever barriers there are to health care. 

Olivia: Yeah, Harlon, I was, I was actually going to ask about the holistic because I feel like so much of our country and so many in our country faith in the conventional care, um, because they’re not getting what they need and getting actual help and results from their doctors, regardless of how many times they go to see them.

You know, it’s always like, Oh, I have this chronic condition, this chronic symptom, and there’s nothing wrong with me. So finding, you know, alternative care solutions, um, is something that I see very commonly now, you know, especially as the younger generation, I feel like, you know, the millennials, the Gen Z is I’m sure older people as well, but I see it in our marketplace very much looking for other solutions.

Harlon: Yeah, they absolutely are. And many folks are much more open minded than others on those type things. And there’s nothing wrong with that whatsoever. But your traditional plans, they’re not going to include those things because This is the way it’s always been. I mean, that’s, that’s one of the scariest terms you’ll ever hear, but that’s, this is the way it’s always been.

We don’t do that because this is the way it’s always been. Um, most of our options now, uh, we include some version depending on the plan and what the employer wants. We even include some version of stem cell therapy. 

Olivia: Wow. 

Harlon: And we’ve seen stem cell therapy, especially in the MSK, the musculoskeletal. Uh, we’ve seen that have dramatic effects where there’s a lot of folks that may have had some kind of invasive surgery that haven’t had to have any.

They, they had the stem cell and they’re, I mean, fully 100 percent good to go and have not had to have the surgery at all. So imagine that cost savings for an employer when he didn’t have to pay those tens of thousands of dollars for some surgery, a knee replacement maybe. Uh, and instead he was able to, to get, you know, spend a couple thousand bucks on a, a treatment regimen for stem cells and the individual is good to go and super happy with everything that happened.

Olivia: Yeah. There’s, 

Harlon: there’s great answers out there. 

Olivia: And the other thing I was thinking about Harlon is, you know, we talk about saving money and, you know, saving money is great, but if you don’t have your health and your employees don’t have your health, like you don’t have anything at the end of the day. You know, you can have.

millions of dollars and feel like crap and have no solution and you don’t have it. You don’t have anything. You’re at the mercy of the system at that point, the system and God. Um, so having solutions that are accessible, affordable, and are actually going to give the employees and the patients results is something that’s very powerful and certainly worth looking into.

Harlon: Yeah, I mean, as a, as a paraphrase here from, from Vir, from Virgil, uh, the greatest wealth is health. 

Tim: Mm hmm. Yeah. Exactly. You know, in Harlon, so I would imagine because there’s a, I won’t say a greater focus, but I guess the reality is there is a greater focus on preventative care under this model. Yes. And there’s certainly, uh, so I would imagine that the overall costs.

to the plan or to the company are probably significant or the group. Let’s say the, the, the employer group, I would say the savings have to be significant. Is that a fair estimate? 

Harlon: It’s, it’s somewhat fair. So let’s remember, we have to meet a group where they are and what we see is typically a very dramatic savings, but sometimes it’s over three years.

If we walk into a group that has a number of health concerns that can be corrected through better engagement with primary care, with better engagement and you know, the really working through those chronic conditions to get them under control. Then they may not see a savings in that first year. In fact, they may see a slight increase in cost that first year as we get their group healthier as we implement all the different pieces of this because I promise you It’s never just as easy as everyone in your company says yay a new health plan.

Let’s all do new stuff It’s gonna be awesome. They say they’re gonna make us healthy So we’re gonna do all the new things that they want us to do from day one 

Olivia: because health insurance 

Harlon: Exactly, right? I mean, they’re so excited whenever they do in the insurance guy comes in and talks to him about all the new stuff And oh, look, we have a new app.

I’m gonna play on it every single day and keep track of all my stuff It’s gonna be awesome No, you’re not going to have that. Um, it’s going to take a little time. There’s going to be some engagement issues we have to overcome, depending on your group. Some groups are easier than others, but there still has to be some buy in.

And typically, your second year is better than your first year, and your third year is where you’re knocking it, starting to knock it out of the park. If you don’t knock it out of the park that year, you’re usually hitting a triple. And here’s why. Because especially if it’s designed To benefit, to give greater financial benefits to the people that fall in line, okay, I’ll say that.

But the people that actually follow and go through, get their, get their annual physicals done, uh, work with the, uh, the medical utilization management to make sure they’re getting the proper care at the proper time at the proper place, getting quality health care, and they follow this pathway. Once the other folks that are not doing that see the results of these folks, They want to come over here.

They say, wait a second, I had a knee replacement, and John over here had a knee replacement, and it didn’t cost him anything, and he was back to work in eight weeks. Mine was not messed up, but I got an infection. I got an infection, and then I had to be readmitted to the hospital. They had to clean that out, and I had to be on antibiotics for two weeks, and then because of that, I ended up having to have another knee replacement.

And it was 8 months before I was back, and my total out of pocket was 28, 000. What the heck happened? How did he get his for free, and everything went great? And mine went horribly awry. I thought I went to a good doctor. Based on what? Honest question. Olivia, Tim, right now. How would you decide, if, if you had to have a major surgery, how would you decide that the doctor you were going to see was a good doctor?

Olivia: Referrals? 

Tim: I would probably look at referrals or do some research. 

Harlon: Where would you research at, Tim? That’s a good, where would you research at?

Tim: Probably at, at the doctor’s website or the hospital website.

Harlon: You know what’s interesting about the doctor’s website, Tim, is everything on there shows five star Google reviews. He’s a great doctor, just ask him.

Olivia, what are your thoughts on that? Where would you, if you had to, if you had to check on a doctor, where would you do that at? 

Olivia: Well, I was also thinking, so, I mean, I don’t know what I would do because there’s nothing on the websites. There’s, you know, the doctor’s picture. So he’s a person, um, where he went to school, his address, his phone number, how to get in touch with him.

So, but I mean. I think another option would be, you know, the referral from your doctor, but I was thinking that at the end of the day, I think the, I would imagine the surgery, the success of the surgery would have to do with your, your overall health and your body. So, you know, individual results may vary.

Well, 

Harlon: okay. So here’s another question then. If, if there’s two surgeons working at a Same exact hospital, same exact operating room. One does this surgery anywhere from 20 to 25 times a week, and the other one does this surgery anywhere from 2 to 8 times a month. Which one of those surgeons would you want to go see?

A. 

Olivia: The first 

Harlon: one. 

Tim: So, so where do you find that information? 

Harlon: This is the interesting thing, right? You have to know what the quality scores are for surgeons and there are resources out there, but typically it’s not easy to find as an individual. Uh, we have that information in our health plans and we have nurse navigators that help provide you that information.

Uh, we also have the difference in facilities. Here’s another thing. We know where a surgeon can that maybe a surgeon has a score of 93 at one facility and 60, 70 at another facility. Why would that be? It tells you that one facility is doing a better overall job of cleanliness and the team at this one is a better overall team than what they have at the other facility.

Those type numbers are very important because you’re still getting to see the same doctor. But would you rather go to the place with the better outcomes? Same doctor. It’s not the, in other words, in this case, the doctor score reflects everything guys. It reflects the outcome. It, uh, it, uh, reflects this, uh, readmittance.

It affects the infection rate. So even things that are outside of that particular surgeon’s purview, as it were, all fall into that score. That’s important information, in my opinion, but there are multiple places where you can get this. Typically what we do is we have ways to aggregate all of that information so that then you get a real true score of what that looks like for that particular surgeon.

We have seen wildly different scores for the same exact person. And then also wildly different scores even at the same facility. For more information visit www. FEMA. gov Because sometimes some of these physicians will not work with anybody but their own team. And when that happens, when you have that specialist that only works with their, that one team, you’ll see very consistent scores at different locations where it may be different for other doctors.

It’s kind of an interesting little thing, but if you don’t know, you don’t know. I wouldn’t have known any of this stuff until I started listening, right? I started listening and hearing like, whoa, wait a second. I was, I heard a great story one time where the guy said, I was referred to this doctor for this, for a neurological, uh, situation that I had.

I was referred to this doctor, and he was great. He was, he was the head of the department at this hospital, so that means he’s got to be a great doctor. And I went through the whole process, and I was getting ready for my surgery, and then I talked to my buddy, a friend of mine is who we talked to, and he said, he said, would you like me to see what that doctor’s score is?

He said, yes, I’d love to know what that score is. I mean, I’m certain that he’s a great doctor. Once again, he’s the head of the department here. But yeah, just to make me get that warm and fuzzy, give me that, give me that score. Called him back a couple days later. He said, you know, I got some good news and some bad news for you.

He’s like, well, tell me the bad news. He goes, well, your, your doctor, your doctor score was 8. 64. Like, that’s not terrible. Out of a hundred.

What? Out of a hundred? He said, how’s the guy even still practicing? He said, well that’s the problem. He’s not really. He does just enough to keep up his certification to be able to do this surgery. He’s so busy administrating as the head of that particular department, he doesn’t have time for surgery. So, you’re kind of out of practice when that happens, right?

It’s not fair to the surgeon, and it’s damn sure not fair to the guy that’s affixing to go under the knife. He says, well, what the hell could be the good news? He says, well, two of the guys that work under him both have scores over 95, so I’d highly recommend maybe talking to one of them. So, that’s what he did.

He changed doctors to one of the guys, uh, the guy actually had an over 97, a 97. 2 rating, and everything went wonderfully for him. But you don’t know what you don’t know. Once again, this guy’s the head of the department. He’s got to be the best there. Unless he’s not. But how do you know? 

Olivia: You don’t. You don’t.

And hopefully you find out before it’s too late, right? 

Harlon: You’re going to find out one way or the other, Olivia.

Tim: Yeah, and And it could very well be that he became the head of that department because his best friend was the guy who was hiring or appointing the heads of the various departments. Right, 

Harlon: or he could have been, he really could have been great at administration, right? It could have had nothing to do with his skills, but he was really good.

And maybe he was a really good leader and a really good administrator and he found his niche. And that’s where it was. But at the same time, I don’t know how hospitals work. Clearly, this one worked where he still had to maintain that certification and obviously his licensing to be able to be the head of that department.

But he was, in my opinion, he was doing no one a favor by doing that, but they didn’t ask me for some reason.

Olivia: Okay, Harlon, well, how could our listeners get in touch with you if they have any questions, you know, as an employer, um, looking for services for their, for their business as far as healthcare is concerned? 

Harlon: Yeah, absolutely. Uh, obviously they can reach out to me directly at my email at hpickett at EagleCareHealth.

com. But if you want to learn more about EagleCare itself, you can go out to EagleCare. com You can also find me on LinkedIn I have lots and lots and lots of content for you on LinkedIn Go out love to connect with anybody and everybody on LinkedIn. We do monthly audio rooms live audio rooms on LinkedIn called why does health care suck and Every month we talk about different subjects.

We are right now on a three part series of What’s going on with employers. So the why does health care sucks series has talked about all kinds of things, including some of the barriers to health care. But in this particular part of the employer point of view, it has been what is keeping employers from making that change.

So if you go out, you can find recordings of that as well. But go out to linked in and Find me there. And then, of course, as I had met Tim originally, he was on my podcast, the Health and Well Power Hour. You can find the Health and Well Power Hour at hwpowerhour. com or at any of the typical places where you digest your podcast.

And then on March 4th, we kicked off our once again series that we were doing for a lot last year and kicked off in a new format this year across multiple platforms. And this is called the kickstart. So each week, 10 a. m. Central time, we will do a broadcast about trends and news in the health insurance and health care world that really kind of keeps you up to date with what’s going on.

So follow all of these different things. Reach out to me personally. Love to talk to you about what’s going on with your company and how we can help you If you don’t want to work with us, I promise we have got tons and tons of other folks around the country that are doing some of the same point solutions and some of the same concepts that we are.

Uh, we even have a good buddy in Puerto Rico that is doing this as well. So he can help you out there if you’re in that area. 

Olivia: Awesome. Well, so much for all of the wealth of knowledge and the energy that you brought to the show today. We greatly appreciate you taking time out of your day to You know, inform everyone about what’s going on out there and about the alternative solutions that are available, um, for health care, um, for their employees and, you know, bringing that to the forefront for a healthier country and healthier individuals that were around every day.

Tim: Yes, Harlon. This is such valuable information. And you know, when we’re talking about helping people or companies control their cash, one of their major expenses other than salaries is health care.

So if there’s an opportunity for people to save on health care, but also improve the quality of life. of health care that their employees are receiving. That all translates to the bottom line of the business as well. 

Harlon: It has been my pleasure. Thank you guys very, very much for having me.

Tim: Hello, welcome to The Control Your Cash Podcast and it is our pleasure to have Scott Goodrich. Scott is a business consultant and the name of his business is grow your damn business. But on top of that, he and his wife own a business called get your damn haircut. And Scott’s going to share with us his unique story, uh, his entrepreneurial journey. What that led him to and more importantly, what were some of the pitfalls that he had experienced? Scott, welcome to our show.

Scott: Thank you so much for the intro and thanks for having me. Looking forward to it. Tim Olivia. Nice to see you today. Thanks for having me.

Olivia: pleased to see you as well, Scott.

Tim: So Scott, tell us about, you know, you worked in the corporate world and tell us what you were going through, you know, sort of like the gestation of, you know, you get your job, you’re, you’re working in the corporate world. You think this is the greatest thing since sliced bread. And then And you know, what were the sort of red flags or the things that you had seen that said, you know, this ain’t my cup of tea.

Scott: Yeah, that it’s interesting because I had done a lot of entrepreneurial things as a teenager and coming up and then got into college and You know, a lot of the folks around me were accountants and accountants get jobs out of college, and I’m looking around going, what am I going to do, right? I didn’t really have that, that set plan.

My degree was in political science, which a lot of times leads to law school. It’s what my father did, uh, can lead to a lot of things. Well, for me, it led to a sales job because I wasn’t ready to go out on my own. So starting in sales and then, uh, made a pivot, uh, from sales, um, into sales leadership and then ultimately onto the operations side and just sort of worked my way through a couple different companies.

Moving my way up there. Uh, so kind of left that entrepreneurial thing behind me. Um, in the mid, around 2015, 2016 Um, I took, you and I were talking before we got started here, I took one of those those hits to the gut, if you will, and got, was in the middle of a company reduction and realized, although I had a job and a paycheck, it’s not that security that comes with that necessarily. Right, just because you have that all the time, right, there’s always that chance it could happen. And so when that ended, I said, how would I get more control of what I’m doing? So I had some money that I could invest and so made the decision to invest into a franchise opportunity labeled as or marketed as, um, absentee CEO, right?

The old passive income marketing. So. Mistake number one. There is no such thing as absentee CEO. There is no such thing as passive income. So, right there. Uh, so, so that, that’s learning right about. And, and we love the concept. The concept was based out of Portland, Oregon at the time and had a really good footprint in the, in the upper northwest.

So Portland and Seattle were the, were sort of the anchors of the franchise. And my wife and I just loved, loved the concept and thought it had legs. And, and the team that was leading it really had a really great story to tell. So it was easy for us to track in there, but the operating model was, was not what we expected.

So, uh, lesson number two on that is that the operating model that we were handed was, uh, was, was not ready for prime time. And unfortunately, I was trying to take some things that I learned from leading larger companies and larger teams into running a small business. Well, that doesn’t work either, right?

It’s good knowledge, like I was. I don’t know, a smart guy or smart enough guy, but it wasn’t knowledge that was gonna help me get this business started in the way that it should have. And so, uh, those first few years were painful, to say the least, trying to Be an absentee CEO without a straight operating model is just, it was a lot of, um, earning money on one side and, uh, and putting it back into the business to just keep it afloat on the other side.

Uh, you know, really treading water and, uh, on certain months drowning, um, you know, operating in the red all too often.

Tim: So that’s a struggle that a lot of small business owners work with, which is the cash flow issue. Uh, we commissioned a research report. There’s over a million dollars worth of research, and it came back with what we refer to as the three disturbing trends that threaten small business owners and put the next generation at risk. But the number one trend, as you probably know, is cash flow. And it seems that, according to Intuit, 61 percent of small business owners struggle with cash flow issues. 69 percent of small business owners either admitted to sleeping less or losing sleep due to cash flow concerns. Now I’ve worked with small business owners in the financial services sector for 38 years and here’s what I found Scott, every one of those cash flow issues was self inflicted meaning that it wasn’t the amount of revenue.

that the company had that was holding them back or was creating their cash flow issues. It was literally how they were using their money. I call that the financial golf swing. And when you utilize, when you’re using the club properly in golf, it’s a beautiful thing. You hit these straight, beautiful shots. And, but when you’re not using the club properly, it could get ugly, as we all know. But the point is, how you’re using your money is way more effective than where your money is. And that’s what we teach our clients. We teach them how to utilize their cash flow in a much better way. But one of the things, the unique things that I liked about your story, uh, share with our audience. What your budget was as far as, you know, your, your revenue and, and, or I’m sorry, your overhead. And where were you from a cash position? Because that was the thing in our pre call that really stood out and struck me.

Scott: Yeah, so I, I, let, let me admit to a few things here. So, uh, shortly after, uh, Deciding to, to build, to go into this franchise world and take this on because it wasn’t well run and because we were running in the red and my wife was already working full time. She had never stopped working. I actually went back and got a JOB because I needed to find a way to bring some more cash to the table.

So mistake number one is I went out and tried to find a salary that was going to allow me to keep this business going. So now when I say I’m literally moving money from one pocket to the other, right, it’s going in one pocket and going out. The other side because I thought that was the answer. I wasn’t fixing the fundamental challenges in the business So tim your point is spot on I wasn’t actually addressing The the the illness right?

I was on a symptom. Oh, let me just find a way to mark money I’m sure it’ll be better next month. Right and then i’m sure it’ll be the next month. So that’s that’s a wish That’s a hope that’s not a plan Right. So, so, and that kept going and going. And the irony, Tim, that I shared with you here is it’s a haircut and color retail storefront, right?

So we got it internet proof, right? You cannot take your haircuts online. So really thought that was great. Not pandemic proof. So, right as we’re getting into March, and, you know, we had been on the struggle bus for some time, just as I’m describing here, with expenses outweighing revenues, weren’t quite hitting the market, we thought we were in a good location, but we hadn’t hit it yet.

And so, we went into the pandemic really struggling and doing this kind of dance with, okay, we’ll make a little money here, but then we’ve got to put it back in, or I have to invest more personal money from a savings account into this thing. And then the pandemic hit and of course we had to shut down that was mandated by the state and we went back and look my wife and I did just recently and in our bank account at the beginning of the pandemic, we were down to 230 in our in the bank account to finance this this business and it’s all W2 employees, you know, we’re not renting chairs.

We actually are paying people to do this and you’ve got to have coverage. The model for this was a walk in business, which means you had to have people on An hourly rate, hourly plus commission, but they had to be there in case someone did walk in. So we had no idea, no predictability. We all, all we know is we had to have people there.

Do we have to have two people there? Do we have to have six people there? You never knew, right? Because we didn’t have a really good insight into that thing. I mean, it was just a lot of flawed fundamentals that sitting here today seems so obvious, but when you’re in the middle of it. And I wasn’t doing the right things.

I wasn’t reaching out to anybody. We weren’t getting all the support from the franchise from an operations side. Like, literally, we were looking for a lifeline, couldn’t find it. We weren’t aggressive in going to look at it and just said, Well, we’ll just keep kind of charging and working on this one side in order to see if this thing will ever kind of catch fire magically.

Um, so, a lot of bad stuff going on in those first three years of this little venture that we were on.

Tim: So how did you and your wife manage to work your way through that, get through it. What did you come upon or what ideas were you able to implement that got you through all of the mud, if you will. Could, could,

Scott: to heart talks. You talked about losing sleep about cash. Well, we simply lost sleep. Do we even want to open this thing up? Do we just take all of the losses that we’ve incurred thus far and close the door and deal with it? Like a lot of businesses did in the pandemic. There’s a lot of restaurants that went that way.

A lot of retail storefronts like that. Tim, Olivia, I’m not telling you guys anything you don’t know. You probably had clients or people that you know that went through that same, same journey.

Tim: could I share some data with you?

Scott: Please, let’s do it.

Tim: uh, 40 percent of all retail businesses. That closed during the pandemic, reopened. And I really think, and some of those businesses were third and fourth generation businesses. It is a sin. You know, listen, the pandemic was bad enough. But the state’s response to the pandemic Was a crime against humanity.

And it’s really a shame what they did to small business owners.

Olivia: Yeah, and at the end of the day, the small business owner is the backbone of the U. S. economy, right? And to Scott’s point, you know, there were struggles going on before that pandemic, and it pushed so many people over that edge that there was no return. You know, so a lot of people get into the small business like Scott was mentioning for that sense of freedom, for that sense of control, for that sense of, you know, being in charge of your own destiny.

And, you know, it’s, it’s not easy. It doesn’t come with an owner’s manual. Um, there’s a lot of things that have to be learned on the fly. And, you know, if you’re not going for those efficiencies along the way, it could be a real struggle. You know, especially when push comes to shove and then. The world shuts down.

Scott: Yeah, yeah, guys, guys are spot on, right? And look, this. We only had so much influence. We had o over the, the state and what was going on there. And I, I think obviously uncharted waters decisions that, that were being made, you know, that, that were impacting folks. You know, we could probably talk for hours on that.

You know, that’s, that didn’t even sweat that so much. It, we just took a person say, you know, what is going to happen here? What, what is it, what are we going to do? Because this is our money , our savings that have, and the investment that we made. What, what are we going to do here? And so this is where I have to give all the credit to my wife, who decided no, and she, she’ll be the first to tell you, she’s stubborn, and when she decides she’s going to dig into something, she digs in.

So she made the decision that, ironically, she had left her previous job before the pandemic hit by just a couple days. We had no idea what was coming, but she had just, that had run its course, it had been 20 plus years, and she was going to do something different. Well, the pandemic hit. She, we weren’t just, we were

She said, okay, I’m gonna take this challenge on, like, I’m going to dig in both hands and figure out how, how to get this, get this back going. So we took this challenge and, and found the gift in the challenge. She, she dug in despite it’s not what she wanted to do, but realized we could change our operating model.

Some of it was required, so we went from walk-ins to appointments. Right. That was the first thing to control it. The second thing is we reduced our hours. Right. Big operational change. The operating model of that franchise, and I know it sounds silly, was to be open for a long period of time so that you could take people when they wanted to come in and you’d have this walk in traffic.

All sounds well and good, but if you don’t have a big clientele and you’re open for 12 hours, that’s tough on staff. It was a money suck. It was just dragging money out. So we said, no, we’re going to control the flow, appointment only. Concentrate the clients, right? Those are the first things. We changed the way that we compensated folks so that they would win when we won, right?

So that was an incentive for them to get on board, work their social media accounts, bring in their clients there, right? And then we dug into the real. So, I would just, we went micro on the business and really started to identify those areas where there was real leakage, what was going on, where could we make moves and just kept tweaking and tweaking and tweaking and, oh, we have this challenge, we can do this here and oh, this is the one marketing source that’s really working for us, so let’s stop throwing stuff against the wall and concentrate dollars here.

We just got smart. The sad part of this is that we just weren’t getting any of this information from our franchisor, so, you know, I. If you find the right franchisor, there is that playbook that’s given from an operational side. But if you find the wrong one, they’re really good in the marketing side. But the, the operating playbook for a new startup of a, of a location is not there ’cause they, they’re at a different stage or they wouldn’t be franchising. They’ve got a mature business. And, and so we rewrote the playbook for ourselves. We rewrote the operational manual operational playbook and, and it, we, it, it just started to hit for us. We started to realize we could. We could maximize and optimize this opportunity and actually opening less, concentrating more, and that began the road back.

And we started to see real inroads, um, as we got into the summer and then into the fall of 2020, sort of post the pandemic. And it’s been nothing but a straight upward trajectory since that time, uh, to a remarkable degree, actually.

Tim: So that’s a great point. You know, you, it seems like you. Part of your DNA was this entrepreneurial spirit. And you sort of abandoned it when you got into the corporate world. But that’s a fire that it’s either in you or it isn’t. And it was clearly in you and that led you to, okay, wanting to be in business for yourself, control your own destiny.

And, you know, getting in on the franchise side is usually a good idea because theoretically the franchise or has. everything figured out and he’s gonna, or they’re going to, uh, hand you over the key, so to speak of a turnkey operation. But what you realized probably too late, you know, there’s an old Dutch saying that, you know, too old, too fast, too smart, too slow.

And what happened is you realize, you know, we don’t have the support here that we need. And in,

Scott: to hear that, but that’s what was going on. I don’t think it was, you know, intentional, obviously as a franchisor you want your franchisees to succeed. It was just what had worked for them at the time that they were building the business out in their home market was just different than opening up with no brand recognition in a new market.

Those are just two different things. And so what worked in one wasn’t going to work in the other and I just don’t think the playbook was, was adopted or adapted. I should say adapted for, for opening in new markets. And then we compounded the problem by not doing the right thing. Tim, it’s funny you mentioned, I’m going to, I’m going to be critical of myself here.

Because, yes, I say, I’ve done entrepreneurial things and I’m on to a couple other ventures even since the, um, since the haircut business got, got going. But an entrepreneur keeps going in the face, even when things are challenging. And what I did was went back to work. So I, I do challenge myself. Like, do I, is that, so the spirit is there, but is it like, there are some folks that I talked to, I’m sure that you do, they couldn’t imagine working for anybody else. They couldn’t, they can’t bring themselves, even when times are at their worst, that, that confidence, that, that crazy. Irrational belief that they’re going to get it turned around exists. If I’m going to be honest with myself, I’m not sure that’s all there. We’ve made a go of it through stubbornness and stick to it ness and all those characteristics. But it’s funny, you know, Gino Wickman, the author of the book, and I’ve used this on my podcast a little bit and share it with you. He believes that all entrepreneurs are born not made. You either got it or you don’t. Now, you can still run a business out there, but he says the true entrepreneurial spirit, the true entrepreneur, is born and can’t think of doing anything else ever.

And anything else that they’re doing is just fake because they always are going to go back to the roots. And so I wrestle with this one just as I go back and forth and I, and I appreciate what we’ve done and really what my wife has been able to do and build this and I give her all that credit for it.

But that’s just pure stick to it ness. I don’t know if that’s that internal thing. So this is my internal debate. You’re getting a little bit into my brain here. This

Tim: not intentionally, Scott, but, uh, but you know, you, so let’s, let’s sort of pivot. So, so you, you and your wife worked your way through this, figured it out and then put yourselves in a position to profit from that. And then you had mentioned the book. We didn’t mention the title. It’s it’s traction.

Scott: Traction, yeah, that’s the book that all of EOS is based on, and the book that Gino wrote, you know, over a million copies out there, you know, for any entrepreneur, a must read. Just gotta read it. You don’t have to do all of it, you don’t have to get a coach, but you’re gonna grab something from it. So if you haven’t read it yet, you’re running a small business, spend a couple hours, read the book.

Pay attention to what’s in there. Like there’s some real gold in there and then you can figure out what works for you from there.

Tim: Exactly. So for, for our listeners out there, EOS means entrepreneurial operating system. And Scott is a implementer for EOS. So Scott share with us how you came about EOS, how you became certified or, uh, you know, uh, Registered to be an implementer and how that helps entrepreneurs.

Scott: Yeah, I appreciate your letting me do that. So the journey to EOS for me comes in three parts. And part of the story that they just heard is a big part of that. It’s just lessons learned and not wanting others to go through what I did. Whether you’re into a franchise or doing it on your own and bringing those to the table.

Uh, the second part of it is just this coaching gene that seems to run. I’ve been doing coaching in one aspect or another for seemingly 30 plus years, whether it was in that corporate world, doing mentoring, being part of internal company mentoring programs. I’ve created training classes for new managers as they’re coming through.

I love to see people succeed. Um, I took a turn for three, four years in college and shortly thereafter I was a basketball coach. Like, I, that’s, that’s just part of who I am and I, and I enjoy that. And that’s very much what an implementer does is just help to coach small business owners through some of these challenges.

So those are those, those two pieces there. The third piece is really just a, you know, I’ve been in operations and execution for a lot of years and there’s a lot of things that I’ve learned. from that about getting stuff done. So you kind of take this execution arm, which is really what EOS is. It’s about execution, right?

The word systems in there has nothing to do with I. T. It is about executing with discipline and accountability each and every day. So you got execution, you got coaching. So I try to bring that to clients and then obviously sharing the, the story that I, that I have around my own business and, and say, hey, here’s some things not to do.

It’s the best teacher, right? When you fail and struggle, it’s the best teacher. Just trying to impart some of that and say, hey, here’s a potential pitfall, here’s a potential area of concern. Let’s get ahead of it or let’s plan for it. Um, let’s be intentional around what the next steps are as opposed to being reactive.

And to me, that’s really the most important thing that I can bring to anyone that’s got a small business and is struggling and trying to figure out a different way forward.

Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. So, um, tell us a little bit about, so did you come into the EOS system through, through the book? Um, is that where you first were introduced? And then how did you decide that it was something that you wanted to, you know, do and bring to other people? You know, what connected with you there?

Um,

Scott: then what I know now, uh, cause I wouldn’t have had all those struggles and we wouldn’t be having a story about my, my limited bank account. Uh, cause, cause now that you’re sort of in the ecosystem of EOS, it’s very clear that there’s some really basic things that every entrepreneur should be doing.

Whether they’re using EOS another system, but there’s some really fundamental stuff. Um, so ironically, yes, I did come to it academically, right? I was talking to some folks about what I wanted to do next and The things that I had done and tell my story a little bit it those that were in the know said hey You need to read a couple books See what this is like see if this resonates with you and it and it absolutely did so the minute I read traction and then the follow up rocket fuel Which, which is about how, uh, uh, the, the first and second command.

So the owner and founder, then his or her second in command, how they interact with one another. But that combination of books really lays out the path for any entrepreneur to follow to really fulfill on what they originally set out to do in their business. And so when I read those books, I’m like, Oh, well, that’s me.

That’s the things that I really believe in. I’ve been doing many of them. I haven’t been using the same terminology. necessarily, but it just so that came together nicely. And then it said, well, hey, I can go out and coach. And now we’re back to being out in your own again. So I left that W two world again and that J.

M. E. One said, I’m gonna do this on my own. And I would say that the the beautiful thing is what E. U. S. Is constructed. Yes, the anyone that coaches with the U. S. We are franchise owner. So here I am once again in a franchise world, but they actually do have the playbook. The process is to because No kidding, right?

They run on EOS. So, EOS runs on EOS, so there’s actually a proven

Olivia: what they preach,

Scott: Imagine that. Yeah, walk the walk, talk the talk, right? So, uh, that’s exactly what’s doing so. And jokingly, my wife who really has the reins of the haircut franchise, you know, she looks at it and goes, well, that’s kind of laid out a little better than what we had, right?

You may have gotten the better of the two franchises in terms of how we spend our time. Um, and credit to EOS for what’s been built out. So that platform is there. Now, you have the tools. Now it’s about meeting a client, making sure it’s a good match, and seeing if my personality and my story resonates with them in an effort to help them, and that’s a process that we go through with every client.

Oftentimes a client will talk to multiple implementers in trying to find the right person for their situation, because it’s a personality match as much as is, I like EOS or I don’t like EOS, right? So we want to have both those things, and that’s the process that we go through. We now run our business on EOS and I can tell you we have, we’ve exceeded even our expectations in what we could do with our business after running it on EOS the last year.

The things that we now do, the decisions we now make, the lens in which we view our business through, even now is dramatically different than it was just 12, 14 months ago. Um, because of, of what we’ve been able to, to bring into the business and how we run it now using all of the tools and techniques that are part of EOS and as we were just reflecting this actually had our kind of a year in review of what we did and like, wow, we do a lot of things really, really well right now that, um, that we can attribute to the framework and the system in quotation marks that is EOS and how it lays out You know, here’s the, here’s the way that you want to run this business day in and day out.

Really is, I can attribute a lot of our success in the last 12 months to those techniques that are in there. I can now be a walking advertisement for how effective this can be for a small business owner. 

Tim: And that’s the best advertisement, right? I mean, because nothing could replace experience.

Scott: yeah. And a lot of folks that are implementers. Come from companies that were running on EOS. So their story is very closely tied to it. So they are working for a company They’re either on the leadership team Maybe they own the company or but they say boy this what EOS did for me I want to share with others so that spirit of taking what’s learned and sharing with others that is present across 720 EOS implementers across the globe.

Like that, that is very, anyone you talk to is going to have that same thing. And whether you came to EOS through the book or through a company you worked in, or through someone that referred you, or you were friends with someone else that was doing this, there is this, this genuine tie to the power of the tool, right?

And really put in the end, really truly understanding that this is, this is fundamental change in how you run your business. But if you do follow and do dig in and are willing to do the work when you come out on the other side You’re gonna have what you want from your business whether that is to get it ready for sale Get it ready for the next generation Tim as you mentioned, right?

So so being able to continue it on there, whether it’s just to grow to the next level Maybe it’s I want to keep it running, but I actually do want to have more time So I’m spending 80 hours in this business and I just want to spend 30, right? I’ve done 10 years of 80 hours or 8 years of 80 hours. How do I stop being in it for 80 hours?

Well, there’s a lot of things that we do in the U. S. to reduce that time in there and make it more fulfilling and maybe have it be what you want it to be, which was flexible and be proud of what you built and creating opportunity for others. Like all of that is part of the, the intent and what we try to do when we’re bringing this forward to an organization is giving peace of mind to a business owner that may or may not have it before we met them.

Olivia: Yeah, absolutely. And I feel like beginning with the end in mind and having that intention of what you want to do and what you want to achieve and what you want your life to look like is so important. Scott, could you share with us? I know you mentioned the framework of the EOS. Could you share with us a little bit more about, you know, what’s involved in the EOS, that system?

And, you know, it seems really interesting and really impactful for business owners. You know, bringing to light, you know, even a few of the most impactful systems or, or techniques that you guys talk about would be great.

Scott: Sure. The fundamental thing that we try to bring to business owners, um, is really three things. One, having a clarity of vision, understanding where you’re going and more importantly, how you’re going to get there and making sure that’s clear to everyone involved, your leadership team, anyone that works for you.

So clarity of vision. The second is actually gaining traction in your business and that is operating with discipline. Accountability, high execution, right? Building that accountability up and down the organization so that everyone in the organization cares just as much as the owner does, which is not always the case.

And the third is we work in building team health. So it can’t be a one person show. That business has no value if it’s a one person show. You need to be a healthy, cohesive team that likes working together because that actually demonstrates to anyone that may be interested in your buying business that you actually have a business and not Tim’s Snack Shop.

Right? If it’s just Tim’s Snack Shop, if Tim goes away, there’s no business. But if you can demonstrate that you’ve got a real operating model and you can point to this is the way this thing is structured, you actually have a business that has some value. And if that’s a desire of yours to sell it. Get there.

So vision, traction, healthy are the three things that we do for every client.

Olivia: Yeah. Mm

Scott: things that have made all the difference for us in our business. Okay. The first is one of the big components that we help clients with is people. We typically find that 60 plus percent of all issues related to running a business are in the people. It’s just the way it is. And so we really want to help business owners to identify. We borrow from Jim Collins here. Who are the right people? What are the right seats, right? What are the functions you really need to have to make this business go? That’s a right seat. And what are your core values in making sure that the people that you bring on are aligned with those core values? And we just say that you have to have both of those. You can’t have one or the other because if you have a right person in the wrong seat, that’s expensive. They don’t know what they’re doing. They’re nice people. That’s a lot of, we find that, right? So, hey, I liked, Mike brought my buddy in to, in to run this company with me but he actually doesn’t know what he’s doing.

But I like having him around so I keep paying him, right? That’s an expensive, right people, wrong seat. The flip side of that is the more damaging one, which is a wrong person, right seat. So, to any business owner that, that may catch a glimpse of this, if you have someone that is not aligned with your core values but is a really, really good employee, You need to think about letting them go right they be able to do the work But if they don’t align with your core values, they are a cancer in your organization Even if you don’t know what they’re doing, so this was lesson for us in our business We had a look we’re struggling for revenue.

We’ve detailed that we had a really high performing person But they did not align with what we wanted from the business what we were around and they were killing us Slowly every day with the things they were doing when we weren’t there

Olivia: Yeah. I mean, that’s so

Scott: writes E. And it, until that person left, but when that person left and took all their revenue away, we actually rose. was another thing that we broke through by, by just realizing that we’re not going to put up with that. It’s, it’s, it sounds so simple, but to make that call when you’re in a business, we don’t have that many, we’ve got a dozen employees, it’s not crazy big, but when one of those employees is doing things to work against you 

bad decision. Lesson learned. Open our eyes right to that. So critical.

Olivia: The company culture is so important, right? And the, in so many businesses, you know, as a consumer, I’ll walk in and Um, you know, I, I judge the, the owner by what the staff is bringing to the table. You know, I don’t, I don’t blame the employee. I blame the management because it’s, it’s top, it’s top down in that culture is so important because that’s what’s facing your, your customer, your clientele and representing you and your business.

Um, so yeah, that’s really great. And what else I was thinking about as you were talking. was how scary it could be to cut off the main revenue, right? But, but instead, you know, it sounds like you took that leap of faith and, and trusted that by staying true to your values and what you believe in and what you want to bring to the table, you were provided for even more by getting rid of what you call, you know, cancer.

You know, that, that toxicity within the business. So, um, that’s a really, that’s a really great story and very impactful.

Scott: Yeah, I mean, this, this person was representing between 25 and 30 percent of our monthly revenues, yet they represented 10 percent of our staff. So this is a high performer who’s no longer with us. Just was, just, just did not fit. Uh, believe a little bit late to get there, but it was, but you know, like when that was coming, other folks just stepped in, right?

Other, they took it on and they, they stepped up because they, they saw we were willing and committed to this. And so now to today, we, we utilize this language with all of our folks. We have three core values, and if there is not an alignment on those three core values, we just don’t have room for you. And that’s okay.

There’s other spots out there. And, and frankly, there is actually. There’s less, there’s less hair stylists than there are jobs in our market. So, so we, we, we are always looking for people, but we’re also willing to not have someone stay with us if they don’t fit. that’s, we just, that’s, that’s our, that’s our force.

And, and that’s. That allows us to have all the right people around us all the time, and that’s critical, right? And it allows for, and then folks feel like they belong, and then they’re going to stay for longer. It helps your retention, your customers feel it, you know, as they’re coming through, as you described.

Right? I mean, it can say a lot of things, and I mean, I just, I use Chick fil A, which is a big national brand, but you know when you’re in a Chick fil A, you know how you’re going to get treated.

Olivia: Yep.

Scott: you right now, I’m a fan. I never, I have never been treated wrongly in Chick fil A. It does not matter what is going on.

And that’s a franchise. But that is a pervasive culture, and I, it’s, it’s real when you’re in there. You’ll get treated really well by everyone that works there, and it doesn’t matter what role they’re playing in that business on that day. And they won’t tolerate anything less.

Olivia: Right, right. And that’s so powerful, right? So, um, I was thinking that while you were saying, talking, talking through your story as well, how impactful it is to have those good experiences in, in these environments, in these businesses. Um, and I, I would argue it’s even more impactful, you know, when it’s in your community, you know, it’s good to.

See good people in your community and be treated well by people in your community and you know It’s easy to support those businesses, you know, it’s easy to want to see them succeed and and do what you can To do that, you know

Scott: Yeah, at Last Check, our little, our little 1, 100 five star reviews on Google. From

Olivia: It’s impressive

Scott: coming in and having the experience that they’re having. Um,

Olivia: really saying something

Tim: wow.

Scott: it’s a big focus of ours to deliver that. And, uh, The, the comments can be humbling when, when you read them ’cause of the clientele that we have and, and how we serve and the things that they, they’ll say about, I’ve never felt comfortable getting my haircut anywhere else.

This place, it allows me to be who I wanna be. I can come in here, do what I want. That we just allow for that as core, as one of our core values. It, and, and allows for that. And that we, we live it and it shows up when our clients talk about us and, and share, um, publicly what their experiences would like.

But you don’t hit them all, but to have that kind of response, um, we feel really good about.

Tim: That’s impressive. So, Scott, we love your story. We love how you found the gift in the struggle, came out much stronger on the other end. More importantly, we love your passion for helping business owners. So, how, how could our audience reach you? How, how can we find you?

Scott: Sure. Uh, so you can find me on LinkedIn. It’s, uh, scottgoodrich eos. So hopefully you can find me there. Pretty, pretty findable there. Um, you can email me directly scott. goodrich at eosworldwide and anyone who does email me reaches out that way. I’m happy to send them a free copy of the book traction. So, if they would like a copy, get their arms around that, we can shoot you up a free copy.

We still use old fashioned hard copies, so you have one physically to hold on to and reference back to. I mean, digital copies are available, but nothing like getting a book in your hand and really digging into it, and so we encourage folks to do that. So, that’s scott2ts. goodrich at eosworldwide. com.

Shoot me an email, I’ll send you a book. Ha ha ha!

Olivia: We appreciate that, Scott, and we appreciate you joining us today. You had a great story, um, you know, full of struggles and triumph, and those are the best stories, as I mentioned in our pre call.

Everyone loves a comeback story, and we also love that you have that experience now. My dad always used to tell me, you know, someone else’s mistakes are the cheapest lessons you could learn. And You know, we appreciate that you’re here sharing that with people and, and bearing all and also, you know, here with a solution and, and showing people the way so they don’t have to make those same mistakes.

Scott: Thanks for saying, I appreciate it. Tim, I’m much better at taking a punch these days. So, I’ve taken a few now, so yeah, I toughen up the jaw, uh, so I can take a punch a little better now than I may have done in my more fragile early years, let’s put it that way.

Tim: So, that’s, absolutely. That’s in reference to, in our pre call we had, we had discussed how everybody has a plan. according to Mike Tyson until he punches them in the face and then that just changes everything and that’s sort of what happens in business, right? You know, it’s amazing to see how your business has evolved. You never could have dreamed, I’m sure, that the business would look the way it does today, even a year ago. the key is, your As, as much as you plan, which you need to do, your business will not, it’s not a linear growth, right? It’s going to have the ups and the downs, and it’s going to morph or evolve into something you never could have imagined. And it’s probably going to be better than you thought,

Scott: If you do the right things and willing to fight the other, I 100%, every business, we like to say every business is going to hit ceiling. It’s inevitable. You’re going to hit them as an individual business owner and be like, uh, this is brutal. You’re going to feel like you hit him as a team or a department or a company like these ceilings are inevitable.

Do you have the tools? Do you have the wherewithal? Do you have things in place that allow you to fight through those ceilings when you hit those, those body blows that you’re bound to face? And we just try to help you provide you with a set of tools that you can go back to, to handle those when they come at you because they’re going to.

You’re right. It is not linear. It is not. It is not a straight line of growth at all. It comes with these plateaus and dips. Uh, how do you gonna rebound? How you gonna stick through it? And so hopefully, uh, we’ve got some tools for you. But, you know, we even within your own that there’s there’s some there’s some things you can turn to to get things going back in the correct direction.

Olivia: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, Scott, for joining us today. It’s been a pleasure having you. It’s been a pleasure and honor to hear your story. And, you know, I’m so happy that, you know, you made it through and that you’re here to show other people the way as well. So, um, if anyone wants to get in contact with Scott, please reach out to him.

He gave you some, some resources there, LinkedIn and his email. So thank you again so much, Scott, for joining us.

Scott: Thank you both for having me. Great speaking with you.